Episode 87: The Importance of Childhood Experiences with Sally Lloyd-Jones
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Author of The Jesus Storybook Bible, Sally Lloyd-Jones, speaks with Sissy and David about how her own childhood experiences with her family and church led to her passion of writing for children.
LINKS
A special thank you to our partners of this week's episode:
Simplified Planner - get 15% off with code RAISING15 at EmilyLey.com.
Explorer Bible for Kids - Learn more at explorerbibleforkids.com. Buy your copy today from Lifeway.com and get 50% off using code RBG.
Automated Transcript
Sissy Goff
Welcome to the Raising Boys and Girls podcast. I'm Sissy Goff.
David Thomas
I'm David Thomas.
Melissa Trevathan
And I'm Melissa Trevathan.
Sissy
And we are so glad you've set aside a few minutes to spend with us today. In each episode of this podcast, we'll share some of what we're learning in the work we do with kids and families on a daily basis at this hour. Counseling in Nashville, Tennessee. Our goal is to help you care for the kids in your life with a little more understanding, a little more practical help and a whole lot of hope. So pull up a chair and join us on this journey from our little yellow house to yours.
Sissy
David, we are still getting feedback from folks about our podcast episode with our friend Emily Ley.
David
People absolutely love that episode. And it's no surprise because that Emily Ley is a delight. She is so enjoyable and the work she is doing in this world is so enjoyed by countless folks, including us.
Sissy
I love my simplified planner and I love telling folks about Emily and introducing them to her products.
David
Not only is Emily the queen of organization with her popular simplified planner, she's also the creator of other incredible products to help you simplify your life.
Sissy
And she's a children's book author. How does she do it all?
David
I think I know the secret. She probably uses her simplified planner to keep track of all of her incredible work and her family life.
Sissy
You must be right. 2023 is right around the corner, and I know I want my year to be the most peacefully productive yet.
David
Sounds like you need another simplified planner for the new Year.
Sissy
Yes, I do. Join me over at EmilyLey.com and use my code RAISING15 for 15% off your purchase at Simplified. Again, that's Emily Ley, Allie Wired.com, and my code is RAISING15.
Sissy
Sally Lloyd-Jones is a New York Times best selling, award winning children's book writer. Her writing has been critically acclaimed by The Wall Street Journal and The New York Times, including her mega bestseller, The Jesus Storybook Bible. Sally was born and raised in Africa, schooled in England and at the Sorbonne in Paris, and now lives in New York City.
Sissy
We are so thrilled to share this rich conversation with you. Make sure to listen to the end, because we have a sweet surprise for you, Sally. It is a joy and an honor for us to have you on this podcast. We just have loved your work for so many years. And David and I speak all over the country to parents, and I think every single seminar we talk about The Jesus Storybook Bible.
Sally Lloyd-Jones
Oh. Wow.
Sissy
Cannot say enough about the truth and every time David always introduces it and he says, How many of you all have read that Jesus storybook Bible? And you know, of course, 99% of the people in the room raise their hands. And then he says, How many of you cry every time you read The Jesus Storybook Bible and we both raise our hands too with everyone. It's just beautiful. Thank you for your work.
Sally
Well, thank you. That's wonderful to hear.
Sissy
You have made the Scripture come to life in such a beautiful and poignant way. And would you talk about how you created it, how it started, how the idea formed?
Sally
Well, to tell you that I'm going to tell you a story of how I was one time watching someone do scrimshaw, which is the engraving people do on whale teeth and ivory. And this guy was doing it and he had a big like eyeglass and this scrunched over it and it was tiny. I said, How long does something like that take?
Sally
And he looked up and he thought about a minute, and then he went, oh, probably about 40 years and 10 hours. Wow. In other words, his whole life. Wow. So you can say literally, it took me a year to write the book, but really, it's my whole life. And anyone knows that whatever they're doing, that it's not the actual time.
Sally
It's the complete thing that makes you who you are. That out of that comes whatever God's called you to do. So my childhood, I have another memory. I became a Christian when I was about four. My dad led me to the Lord in a wonderful way. So I knew from the very beginning that Jesus was my best friend.
Sally
But I wasn't quite so sure about God because I would read these stories like David and Goliath, which of course is a very exciting story. Except if you think that you're supposed to be brave like David. And as a little girl, I would think, well, I never would be brave enough to fight a giant, so I'm not doing it right.
Sally
So God must not be pleased with me because he wants me to be like David. So God must not love me. How can he? I'm not doing it right. And because I had got this idea that God was some kind of hard taskmaster and I'm supposed to be a hero. So that was something. Even though I grew up in a Christian home, I somehow had this idea that, you know, Jesus was lovely and God was so nice.
Sally
You know, I went to a Sunday school when I was about six that I remember, and I'm sure they all meant very well and who knows what they really were saying because a six year old will take whatever they know. But. Right. I was a dreamy child, so I wasn't particularly at the top of my class or anything.
Sally
I was always staring out the window. But not only did I have that at school, but then I'd go to church and in the Sunday school I'd get the same impression that I wasn't doing it right. So my impression was it was all rules and coloring inside the lines and I wasn't good enough. And so as a six year old, I remember saying to myself, when I grow up, I'm never going to church again.
Sally
So something went very wrong and all of that to say. I sort of in some ways credit that Sunday school with why the Jesus Storybook Bible came to be. Because I had such a burning passion that children should know that God loves them. And it's not about them trying to be good, so he'll love them. It's because he's good and he loves them and out of his love for them, then their life will change.
Sally
I wanted children to know that they were loved, first of all, by the God who did everything to come to be with them and moved heaven and earth so that he could be close to them. So that was my passion behind writing the book. And so I think it was my whole life leading me from when I was very little through that Sunday school to know that I wish there was a book that I could have read as a six year old that would have told me the truth, that, yes, our lives are to reflect him, but that can't be the first thing.
Sally
Otherwise, why would Jesus have come to Jesus had to come Because we were powerless and the whole story of the Bible is not this condemning rule book that tells me how wrong I am or heroes I'm supposed to copy. It's nothing about that. It's about the story of how God loves his children and comes to rescue them. Then it's a love story and it's a wonderful rescue story.
Sally
And it's a story about a hero. And it's so much more than what we sometimes get the impression that it's some kind of moral lesson. So that's the long answer to your question. I guess. It took all of my life.
Sissy
There's a beautiful answer to the question. I feel like I just am breathing deeper just hearing you talk. Sally, Thank you.
Sally
Well, I'm and it's also encouraging, I think, for anyone to think it's all grace and God equips you for what he calls you to do. And it's all of your life that's going into it. So you sort of can can relax and follow the clues because they'll be there. Yes.
Sissy
Relax and follow the clues.
David
Great wisdom. Yes. Sally, you are also the author of Known Found Goldfish on Vacation Thoughts to Make Your Heart Sing, Song of the Stars and countless Others. What do you love most about writing for children?
Sally
Well, I think they're the best readers ever because they'll go with you. Their imagination is just amazing. But hand in hand with that, it's a great honor to write for children. But it's also a great responsibility because the younger it's a double edged sword. So I think what I love about writing for children is the joy and the humor and the imagination.
Sally
They'll go with you and all of that. And at the same time, it's a great responsibility and it demands our best work. Another passion of mine is when I get the impression that people think, Well, they're just children, so anything will do. And you see that reflected in all kinds of ways where people think, well, you know, anyone can write a children's book.
Sally
Well, I heard a wonderful professor of children's writing say once, Yes, it's very easy to write a bad picture book. And I think that's what I would say is children deserve our best work. Writing a children's book is not easy. It demands your best work, just like writing for an adult and that's not to pass myself up. It's just more that we need to really respect children and realize because they're younger, it's all the more important that they have the best work that you can give them.
Sissy
Yes. Sally One of my favorite experiences of my entire life is that I went to Regent College in Vancouver and took a week long class on writing from Lucy Shaw and Madeleine L'Engle.
Sally
Oh, my word.
Sissy
When Madeleine I know it was amazing. And you know, you sound so much like Madeleine L'Engle. Not your voice necessarily, but that is exactly what she talked about when she talked about writing A Wrinkle in Time and writing for Kids. It's so much of the same truth.
Sally
Oh, well, she was a master. Yes, I think it's true in all areas of life that we need to respect children. And who led us in That was Jesus, wasn't he? I think we go very wrong when we think because they're small, that somehow they don't count. The truth is our best position before a child is on our knees, eye to eye, not standing up and speaking down to them.
Sally
It's more getting on their level and learning because we can learn so much from them, don't we? Yes. The simple, straightforward trust. Yes.
Sissy
Well, will you tell us a little bit about your newest book known?
Sally
Oh, thank you. Yes, it's in my series, which the padded board books. And they're geared for the very tiniest ones. Mostly they're paraphrases of Psalms. I mean, one of them is actually the Lord's Prayer, but all of the others we've got known loved near found, which is Psalm 23. So known is some 139 parts of it, because to be known but not loved is awful, obviously.
Sally
Or to be loved but not known is awful as well. But what we all long for is to know that we're known and we're loved. And that's what this book, because it's from Psalm 139, where it's all about God made you and he knows everything about you and he loves you completely. And I wanted children to put it into words that little tiny ones could understand that God is intimately familiar with them and he loves them and they can talk to him and he'll listen to them and he wants to hear from them.
Sally
And he knows their name. He knows the color of their eyes. He knows the dreams inside their heart. He knows everything about them because he made them. So it's really a book of comfort for little tiny ones. And it's got such beautiful illustrations by Jacob, who did the Jesus story. The Bible? Yes. It follows a little boy and his dad through what to me, I think is New York City, a day in New York City.
Sally
So it's beautiful. He's done a wonderful job.
Sissy
Well, I have a eight month old nephew. I'm going to buy that today for Christmas. So thank.
Sally
You. Oh, thank you.
Sissy
David, have I told you lately how much Henry is loving the Explorer Bible I gave him?
David
Have you been doing some of the online activities with the QR codes we love?
Sissy
Yes, he loves his interactive activities, and they turn our reading into an experience.
David
I was talking with a little guy the other day about using his big words dictionary to look up the big words he finds in the Bible.
Sissy
What a great idea. I love it when kids get invested in Bible study, even if it's through something as simple as looking at big words. And that's what's so great about the Explorer Bible for kids.
David
It has so many helpful tools baked right there in the Bible, fun facts and explanations of big concepts. It's the perfect first full text Bible when kids are ready to graduate out of their storybook Bibles.
Sissy
And did you know that Henry said he's already ready to graduate out of picture Bibles at the age of four. So even before they move on from their storybook Bibles to like Henry, he already loves the Explorer Bible for kids. And it's a Bible he can grow into in the years to come.
David
I love that. That's why the Explorer Bible makes the perfect gift for a child's dedication or baptism or birthday. And actually, the New Year’s around the corner, the perfect time to start a new family Bible reading practice.
Sissy
BG such a great idea. All you have to do is go to Lifeway dot com and choose from many fun editions of the Explorer Bible. Make sure to use our special code R to get 50% off.
David
Buy your explorer Bible for kids today at Lifeway.com and use code RBG to get 50% off.
David
Sally, When you think about all of your work, what do you hope children and adults will gain from your writing?
Sally
Well, I've thought about that a lot because you kind of have to keep that in mind, don't you? A wise mentor of mine said, for when the days are hard, you need to remember what took you into the work. And I would just say one word, Joy. That's what I want to bring to children. And if it can bring adults joy as well, that's great.
Sally
So whether it's joy coming through, a very, very ridiculous story about the tiniest king that ever lived, Tiny Cedric, or it's a Bible story, they're all, to me, all part of just telling a good story and bringing joy and laughter. And I think that comes if you tell the truth again, if you do your best work, then the joy will come out of it because it's a new.
Sally
Yeah. Hopefully.
Sissy
Yes. And kids sure know when we're telling the truth.
Sally
I do. That's the other thing, isn't that they keep us honest.
Sissy
Yes, they certainly do.
Sally
The other thing I love about children is when you read to them, as you know, if you're boring with your story, they don't mind. They'll just walk away. You know, it's like that. So that's the other thing I'd say to anyone who wants to write children's books, always writing. It's very important to test it on your audience because they will be very honest with you, and then you'll know that so good.
Sissy
Well, in our podcast, this season is about raising emotionally strong and worry free kids based on books that they've in have written and we'd love to hear about a memory or story from your growing up that helped shape you into who you are.
Sally
That's such a great question. Well, I went to boarding school when I was eight, which is very young, and people are horrified when they hear that. But the school was such a gift to me. And yes, it was hard. But again, in God's scheme of things, that school was where I met the teacher that told me I could write.
Sally
It was the most wonderful school that celebrated imagination, and it was a perfect school for me. So I can see completely how God's hand was in it. But it was a scary thing for an eight year old to be sent away. And my dad gave me Joshua one nine and it says, Have I not commanded you? Be strong and courageous.
Sally
Do not be afraid. Do not be discouraged for the Lord. Your God will be with you wherever you go. And the thing I love about that is he took me seriously. He prayed with me, gave me that verse. And as an eight year old, I took it seriously. I felt like I was Joshua heading off into the Promised Land, and I was in God's scheme of things.
Sally
A little eight year old going to boarding school isn't less important than Joshua. So I think it's one of those things where we must take children seriously. They have deep fears and concerns. And instead of him saying to me, Now, remember to be good. I'm sure he said all that, but if he'd said all of that without the comfort, which is what we tend to do with children, they need all guidance.
Sally
But in that devotional life, they don't need moral lessons any more than when we sit down to do Bible readings. We don't want to be told what we're supposed to be doing the whole time. We need our eyes lifted up to where our help comes from. We need the center of it to be God's strength. And I think with children they need comfort.
Sally
They don't need us telling them what to do the whole time. It shouldn't be moral lessons because that will just end in despair. So I'm so grateful for that verse, which then became a really strengthening thing to me. So I guess that would be what I would say is that if we treat children the way we would, what we would want ourselves when we face difficult things.
Sally
Comfort and truth.
Sissy
It is so interesting to hear you say that you can imagine in this day and time being therapists with kids, we see a lot of anxiety with kids, which is part of why we're wanting to lean into this content. And for you to tell the stories. Sally, of being four and hearing about David and feeling this pressure that you have to rise up and that that's not what you're capable of, to being eight and being sent off to boarding school and hearing about another verse, another scripture saying Be strong and courageous.
Sissy
And the fact that, as you said, it's the love of God that changes us. And whatever your dad did, obviously Jesus was significantly a profoundly at work in your heart to make you feel loved enough to embrace that Scripture rather than feeling like you had to rise up into it. Says so much about what we can do to help kids experience God's love and how it does change us.
Sally
That's so true, because you're right. Something about that verse didn't feel condemning at all, whereas the story, maybe it's because the application that someone gave David and Goliath was what condemned me. Yes. At that Sunday school it was interpretation verses trusting God to speak to the child directly through His word. It was God's word unvarnished. That comforted me.
Sally
David and Goliath, The story probably wouldn't have done that to me if someone hadn't said it to me. Yes. So it's letting God's Word because we have to trust that God can speak to his children whether or not we know what he's saying or not. He'll be none of none of our business. Yes. Because to me, what that verse did was it told me how important I was and how heroic it was that I was going to school.
Sally
And I think that's what God wanted me to know, that it's not an easy thing to do. And he knew. He understood and he was with me. I mean, that's really the key of that verse is a strong, a courageous because I'm with you, not be strong and courageous so I can love you. That's very different. You can be strong because I'm with you.
Sally
Mm. That's a comfort. That's not a moral lesson.
David
Indeed it is. Sally, along those lines, are there any other things that you think helped kids become more emotionally strong and or worry less?
Sally
My perspective is let them be kids. Let them run around. And I'm not a parent, but I have nephews and nieces and sisters and I just think sometimes affairs are what convey fear to children. Yes. So I think our first job in any it doesn't have to be your own children. It's are you trusting the Lord? Is your help first, Are you trusting God with your fears?
Sally
Because if you're not, then you're going to convey it. Even if you don't say anything, it's going to come across. So I think the first job is focus on what your faith is and trusting the Lord with what you're frightened about so that you don't compare it without it meaning to.
David
You for that reminder.
Sissy
That's rousing and such great reminders. So as we spend time with kids and spend time with parents do in counseling, one of the things we talk so much about is how emotions obviously toss us every which way and wanting kids to have foundations of truth to go back to. And you have mentioned so many already as we've been talking, but what would you say is one truth that's really helped you worry less?
Sally
The late Queen's favorite verse, I think, was Where does my help come from? Talking to yourself. And I think David Martin, my genesis in spiritual depression said, Are you listening to yourself or are you talking to yourself? We have to talk to ourselves instead of just listening.
Sissy
Oh, that's so good. I wish I had something I was taking notes. Sally this is so good!
Sally
Yeah, well, you know, the psalmist knows that, doesn't he? Because he's always saying, Why are you so downcast to my soul? I will yet put my hope. So if we're just listening to ourselves. And science has caught up, hasn't it? It knows that thoughts are going through our heads all the time and it's what we do with them.
Sally
If we entertain them, we can go down a rabbit hole. But if we take our thoughts in hand and remind myself where does my help come from? Does it come from me having everything together? Does it come from my wallet? Does it come from me writing another book? Does it, you know, fill in the blank, whatever your thing is.
Sally
No. My help comes from the Lord who made heaven and earth. For me, it's just constantly giving over the things that want to make me worried. It's a constant thing, isn't it? We're just sheep, so we never remember. But I like the idea that Martin Lloyd-Jones said, Talk to yourself. Don't listen to yourself.
David
We talk often about becoming students of the kids we love and would love to ask you. What is something you've learned from kids in general or a specific child you've had the pleasure of knowing?
Sally
Well, so much. I mean, anytime I'm with children, I feel like you just can't get enough of what they say. They come up with such amazing things. And I think Wonder is the thing. Wonder is very connected to me, I think to humility. And children are physically small and the weaker they know it, they don't pretend. They know that we can smaller.
Sally
And I think because of that, they're more filled with wonder if they've got a right sized view of themselves. Whereas we tend to forget because we're still children with God. And anyway, their wonder is what blows me away. That's such a beautiful trait because we get so used to amazing things, you know, just waking up alive or walking down the street and seeing a beautiful tree.
Sally
I want to stay open to that sort of thing. And children, you know, very little children, can be so thrilled with the wrapping paper. Currently, they don't even care about the gift.
Sissy
Yes.
Sally
So I think that's the thing I want to grow in one, to use.
David
Me, too.
Sissy
Well, we cannot say enough about your work and your books and just even talking with you feels like such a confirmation of everything that you're doing and that you are exactly who we would imagine you to be.
David
Why we've loved you for so long.
Sally
Yes, Yes. Oh, that's so lovely. Well, I'm so grateful. As you guys know, your work can make you very you're by yourself working. So it's really nice when you meet fellow travelers and we're all being deployed in different ways. I'm really grateful for your encouragement and thank you for your generosity.
Sissy
Thank you for your generosity to all of us. And we'd love for you to tell folks more about where they can learn all the things that you're doing. And as you have new books, to see how they can keep up with you.
Sally
Oh, thank you. Well, I have a website, which is my name, Dotcom. And I also probably the best way is to sign up for my newsletter because I send out a newsletter every month and in it give away downloads and free things and also let you know about any new books. Or we have a podcast for the Jesus Story book Bible that we've done for now a year, and we have all kinds of amazing guests talking about It's not for children, but what's interesting is teenagers are listening to, but it's very short.
Sally
It's like 10 minutes. We invite someone on from all different walks of life to talk about how grace and love changed their lives. And we've had Amy Grant, we've had all kinds of amazing people. So anyway, the best thing would be sign up with my newsletter, which you can find on my website, or I'm also on Instagram. My tag is my name.
Sally
So those are ways to connect.
Sissy
And we'll link all of that in our show notes as well.
Sally
Oh, thank you. Thank you.
David
Sally. We like to end with something fun. We talk a lot about food on this podcast.
Sally
Well, that must be why I like you. There it.
David
Is. There it is. And we talk about tacos in particular. We'd love to ask you a two part question. First, would you prefer guacamole or queso once? Secondly, what's your favorite taco?
Sally
See how greedy I am? I came straight in with guacamole.
David
We love that.
Sally
And my favorite time, I'm going to say it in a really bad way because I have a friend who's Mexican and she just dies laughing whenever I say this, But I'm just going to say it because I don't know how to say it except the way I say it. So it's barbacoa, but I don't think that's how you say it.
Sally
But you know, that's my British way of saying it, which you probably don't even know what that means. Yes, we.
Sissy
Know. And we say that. Yes.
Sally
How do you say it?
Sissy
No clue.
David
That sounded right on.
Sally
On the right.
David
Your friend did the after the two of us do.
Sally
Yes. Well, I just wanted to also say what a great work you guys do. So I'm grateful for you and how wonderful to have people like we were saying, taking children seriously and taking the fears and sounds, especially now. So I just wanted to thank you for what you guys do.
Sissy
Thank you.
David
You're so kind.
Sally
Thank you so much for having me. It was lovely chatting with you.
David
It's been a joy to spend time with you with this.
Sissy
We hope we get to meet you in person one of these days.
Sally
I would love that. Yes, one of these days. Yes.
David
Blessings on your Christmas season.
Sally
Thank you. Thank you both so much.
David
We have a feeling that you are probably like the two of us and wanting to hear her read. And we got up the courage to ask her if she would. And she was so kind and willing to share her lovely voice. And I ended up telling her the story that every Christmas morning we start out as our family by reading the light of the whole world before we have breakfast and open gifts together.
David
And so we're going to share that little Christmas surprise with you. All right. Now, Sally and her team were so generous to share this recording of her reading The Light of the Whole World. Merry Christmas.
Sally
The Light of the Whole World. The Story of the Shepherds from Luke Chapter two. That same night in amongst the other stars, suddenly a bright new star appeared of all the stars in the dark vaulted heavens. This one shone clearer. It blazed in the night and made the other stars look pale beside it. God put it there when his baby son was born to be like a spotlight shining on him, lighting up the darkness, showing people the way to him.
Sally
You see, God was like a new daddy. He couldn't keep the good news to himself. He'd been waiting all these long years for this moment, and now he wanted to tell everyone. So he pulled out all the stops. He'd sent an angel to tell Mary the good news. He'd put a special star in the sky to show where his boy was.
Sally
And now he was going to send a big choir of angels to sing his happy song to the world. He's here. He's come. Go and see him. My little boy. Now, where would you send your splendid choir to A big concert hall, maybe. Or a palace, perhaps. God sent his to a little hillside outside a little town in the middle of the night.
Sally
He sent all those angels to sing for a raggedy old bunch of shepherds watching their sheep outside Bethlehem. In those days, remember, people used to laugh at shepherds and say they were smelly and call them other root names, which I can't possibly mention here. You see, people thought shepherds were nobody's just scruffy old riffraff. But God must have thought shepherds were very important indeed, because they're the ones he chose to tell the good news to first.
Sally
That night, some shepherds were out in the open fields, warming themselves by a campfire, when suddenly the sheep darted. They were frightened by something. The olive trees rustled. What was that? A wing beat. They turned around. Standing in front of them was a huge warrior of light, blazing in the darkness. Don't be afraid of me. The bright, shining man said.
Sally
I haven't come to hurt you. I've come to bring you happy news for everyone everywhere Today in David's town in Bethlehem, God's son has been born. You can go and see him. He's sleeping in a manger. Behind the angel. They saw a strange, glowing cloud. Except it wasn't a cloud. It was angels, troops and troops of angels armed with light.
Sally
And they were singing a beautiful song. Glory to God, to God be fame and honor and all our heroes. Then, as quickly as they appeared, the angels left. The shepherds stamped out their fire, left their sheep, raced down the grassy hill through the gates of Bethlehem, down the narrow cobbled streets through a courtyard, down some steps up steps past an end round a corner through a hedge.
Sally
Until at last they reached a tumbledown stable. They caught their breath. Then quietly, they tiptoed inside. They knelt on the dirt floor. They had heard about this promised child. And now he was here. Heaven, son, the maker of the stars, a baby sleeping in his mother's arms. This baby would be like that bright star shining in the sky that night.
Sally
A light to light up the whole world chasing away darkness, helping people to see. And the darker the night got, the brighter the star would shine.
Sissy
It’s our joy to bring the experience and insight we gained through our work beyond the walls of the Daystar House.
David
If you enjoyed this conversation, please share it with your friends. And don't forget to click the follow button in your favorite podcast app. So you never miss an episode. To learn more about our parenting resources or to see if we're coming to a city near you, visit our website at Raising Boys and Girls dot com.
Sissy
Join us next time for more help and hope as you continue your journey of raising boys and girls.